The pace of change in the food industry has never been this fast, and will never be this slow again. From plant based to gluten free, Epoch's Glen Petraglia dials into this episode of Actively Speaking to share his insight on the latest food trends , the impacts of COVID-19 on consumer habits, and how large food companies seek to compete in this ever-changing market. (May 20, 2020)
The pace of change in the food industry has never been this fast, and will never be this slow again. From plant based to gluten free, Epoch's Glen Petraglia dials into this episode of Actively Speaking to share his insight on the latest food trends , the impacts of COVID-19 on consumer habits, and how large food companies seek to compete in this ever-changing market. (May 20, 2020)
Hello,
Speaker 2:And welcome to Actively Speaking. I'm your host, Steve Weiberg. Join us each episode as we discuss current issues concerning capital markets and portfolio management from the perspective of an active manager.
Speaker 1:Well, hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Actively Speaking. Uh, today we're gonna be talking about food, uh, probably one of everybody's favorite topics and something we could probably talk about for, uh, for hours and hours, but we'll try to keep it to our usual length. My guest today is Glenn Petralia, an analyst, uh, at, uh, epic. So, welcome, Glenn.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Steve. Let's, uh, good to be with you today.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about, uh, a number of topics, but, uh, in particular, obviously this is a podcast for investing and investors. We're gonna talk about how eating habits have changed over the years and what the impact has been or might likely be on some of the big well known food companies, or perhaps some of the lesser known food companies out there. Uh, and as, as we go through the discussion, we'll try to incorporate a little bit of, uh, speculation about how the ongoing endemic might impact some of these trends and whether those impacts are likely to be short or long lived. Uh, so let's get started. I think the, um, the first trend that we're probably all very aware of in recent years has been a trend towards more fresh food and less packaged food. Uh, but of course, the, you know, the world is filled with very well known, uh, um, you know, packaged food companies with very well known brands, uh, craft, Nestle Campbell, et cetera. So, Glen, what has, uh, you know, how, how has this affected them and, uh, what are they doing about it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, um, you know, as, as you mentioned, Steve, there, there have been certainly some, some changes in, in, in the last, let's say five or so years in terms of how, how consumers are, are, are eating food. And, you know, you mentioned that the shift towards fresh, but even within your, your more standard shelf stable packaged goods there, there's also been a shift. And what you can see is, while overall packaged food growth has been about 1% in dollar terms, uh, in the US over the course of the last five years or so, there, there are a few changes, a few shifts. So organic packaged food products that are, that are labeled, uh, certified organic, uh, have grown at a 7%, uh, annual growth rate from about 2015 gluten free, which has obviously come to the fore, uh, over the course of the last five to 10 years, has grown over 20% in, in the last several years. And then, you know, what, what you can see in the data is that the perimeter, the perimeter of the store has actually been growing faster. So that would be fruits, vegetables, the deli, counter cheese, meat, et cetera. Uh, and I think that there are a number of potential causes of this. First, I, I think there's certainly been an increased focus on the part of consumers around health and wellness. Uh, consumers speak about trying to eat, uh, more healthily and more nutritious food and, and also a, certainly a shift shift in terms of an effort to increase the protein intake. And you've even seen that in a category such as, uh, yogurt, where for a number of years it was just your, your standard fruit on the bottom yogurt or your pre-blended yogurt. Uh, and then, uh, with the, the introduction of Chobani, you know, Greek style yogurt had been around for a very long time, but you know, as Chobani really kicked in as consumers were, were starting to, to look to increase their, their protein intake. So there's even been shifts within what consumers are, are looking for, and, and you've certainly had some smaller brands take advantage of that.
Speaker 1:Okay. So what, what has that meant for some of the well-known, uh, packaged food companies? Are they, are they coming up with new products to meet these demands? Or, or is it smaller companies that are doing that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, I think, you know, that's a good question because it really touches on, on sort of two topics. One, the rise of smaller, smaller brands over the course of the last, let's call it five to 10 years, uh, in the us which has, has, we'll call them insurgents. Uh, and then there's obviously been a response, but on the part of the larger companies. So I think it, it, it's important to, to understand the backdrop of, of how these smaller brands have, have really come to the fore. And I, you know, I would bring it back to the point that, you know, the large food companies aren't necessarily the innovators. Um, historically, they, they can obviously be innovative, but at the same time, their whole purpose is to satisfy consumer needs. And predicting where the consumer is going is not always easy, and they don't necessarily always need to do that. But what they need to do is be fast followers and, and introduce those attributes that, that consumers want into their large legacy brands. So specifically, you know, why have smaller brands been successful, uh, within food over the course of the last five, five to 10 years? And I think there's, there's a couple of reasons. First, barriers Century have fallen, um, with the rise of the internet and digital distribution or online distribution, uh, in conjunction with digital advertising, which is cheaper than, you know, going back to the 1950s when Proctor and Gamble had the soap operas and, and, you know, they would sponsor the shows. It, it's much easier for smaller brands today to gain, to gain traction with consumers. And there's also third party manufacturing capacity, so they don't need to, to, to invest, uh, billions of dollars in capital to get a brand, uh, off the ground. And, and it's interesting, one, one European food ceo, uh, Danone, uh, noted to me that the cost of launching a new brand today has never been lower. And, and that's the case for small brands as well as small companies as well as, as well as large companies. Um, and, and in some respects, smaller brands are in, in some ways actually closer to the consumer. They're actually able and willing to serve a very small niche market. And large companies, perversely have been, in some respects, hamstrung by their size. You know, and an interesting comment that I heard from the CEO of the European company, um, but I think may have been said by, uh, Justin Trudeau at Davo several years ago. I don't know if he originated the, the thought, but the, the comment was, the pace of change has never been this fast and will never be this slow again. And putting that into context of being of, of a big company, big companies are not really set up to be that dynamic and agile. Um, their scale enables them to produce, distribute, and market products in very large quantities. And they've seen, you know, with all of their r and d capabilities. And one of the questions I've had is with, with all of their r and d capabilities and all of the consumer insights that they, that they have, how is it that these small brands have been able to, to come to the fore and proliferate? And I, I think there's, it comes down to, in some respects, I think the large companies have been reluctant to, they've seen those trends and they've been reluctant to follow them even be either because the opportunity was deemed too small for the, for the, for the, for their scale or the margin profile of the opportunity was perhaps below the legacy business that they had, and they were making a trade off between following the growth or going after the, the percent margin. Um, and, and as a public company, there's that trade off, you know, what do my shareholders want? Do they want the growth? Do they want the margin? And I think, you know, what's happened, you know, over the course of the last five plus years is, you know, you've seen the large food companies, uh, for a period of time very focused on cost cutting as a way to bo to boost percentage margin. And that was really ca that really came after the acquisition of Hines by 3G and the subsequent ac ac acquisition of craft, whereby you had very large margin improvement, big pro, uh, profitability improvement, um, and, you know, but, and, and the bet was that you could maintain or slightly grow your top line, your revenue base while that was happening and, and that a didn't happen. And b I think, you know, that was a function of not putting enough focus on the consumer, thereby opening up an opportunity for the smaller insurgent brands to actually gain, gain a foothold. And what you've seen over the course of the last two to three years is a shift from cost cutting back towards innovation and growth by the large food company, right. Globally, and
Speaker 1:I know we, we discussed that offline, so to speak. Um, some, some of these large companies actually maintain, in essence, in-house venture capital arms to go out and invest in startup companies. You know, with the hope that someday these, this will turn into, uh, a, a new line of foods they can acquire
Speaker 3:E e Exactly. And that's, that's something that over the course of the last several years, more and more of the food companies have been building their own venture arms. So, and, and that brings me to this point, is how do large food companies react to the new world, uh, or to drive growth? Um, and one, as you mentioned is they have these venture arms and they'll, they'll take equity stakes in, in some of these small businesses that enables them to invest in the insurgent brands, learn what they're doing, foster their growth, and, and obviously have an option to acquire down the road if, if their success, another shortcut would be just frankly, m and a going out and acquiring outright and seek to scale them up via their own distribution networks. Maybe you can broaden the portfolio. You know, an an example of that would be the, the acquisition of Annies by General Mills several years ago. And they took Annies, which was known for, uh, you know, they had macaroni and cheese, et cetera, and then they moved it into fruit snacks and, and other sort of things that are sort of within the General Mills ecosystem. So you can broaden the portfolios. But the key, when, when these big companies acquire these smaller businesses is you really have to make sure that you're not stifling the, the culture that you're acquiring by, you know, overburdening it with, with corporate bureaucracy. So, you know, maybe you don't integrate it into your headquarters. You know, obviously the back office gets integrated, uh, procurement and supply chain is maybe integrated, but, but at, at, at its core, the culture stays independent. And, and then frankly, the, the large companies can, can, can innovate. And, you know, as consumers needs, wants, and desires change, the large companies can evolve and change their brands or in introduce these attributes into their brands to better suit, to better match with consumer needs. Uh, in essence, modernizing the brands. You know, I think there's certainly been a shift to being more fast and more agile, uh, in innovation across the consumer package, good spectrum in, in, in recent years, particularly as, you know, you focus on, instead of spending three years trying to get a product just right and, and spending, you know, hundreds of million dollars in a launch that maybe doomed to fail, you know, be faster, uh, put a product out, test and learn, you know, fast failure in, in essence in a bid to, to really to, to, to act small, but be big.
Speaker 1:Uh, you made a good point earlier about, um, that these companies, you know, exist to satisfy consumer demands. And it, it just, this is a, a bit of a tangent, but it just strikes me that people are, uh, at any point in time, people are often sort of remarkably, I don't know what the word is, intolerant or incurious of what people's tastes and preferences were 20 years ago that led to the current regime in, in anything, in this case, food. So people today, they look at things like, uh, you know, they say, oh, well, look, they've, they're, they're injecting chickens with antibiotics, and, uh, this is, this is terrible. Why did they ever do that? This is, you know, I wanted an antibiotic free chicken. Well, you know, when, when you, when you live long enough, you, you, you, you're around for multiple cycles and you sort of remember when these things came along and how they were touted as, you know, a great advance because people used to get sick from disease, you know, chicken. And so giving them antibiotics was, oh, thank goodness, you know, now we don't have to worry about getting sick from the food we eat. But, and then, you know, years go by and suddenly that becomes a negative, that, that the food has been treated with antibiotics. So, uh, similarly with packaged food, you know, people are, are sort of recoiled and harder now at, at some of the packaged foods they see and, and the, what they perceive to be unhealthy ingredients. And, and again, they sort of can't, they don't seem to be willing to think about, well, why did that ever happen? And of course, it was for convenience, because preparing, you know, we, we live in, we we're very spoiled in the sense that, you know, they'll joke about these days about where, where does food come from? It comes from the supermarket, you know, uh, but that is the way most people's lives are now. They don't have to ever worry about, you know, really raising their own food or getting your own food. You just go to a store, it comes in a box. And at one point, that was considered a marvel of the modern world. Uh, and now again, it's, it's become a bad thing because it's, it's considered unhealthy, uh, not to say that.
Speaker 3:And to that point, and to that point, one of, one of the trends that you're certainly seeing more and more so is companies looking to, uh, reduce the artificial ingredients within, within their products. So trying to, to move more towards clean label ingredients that people understand, um, et cetera, to, to overcome that, that, that potential or perceived negative.
Speaker 1:Right. What, uh, so of course we're, we're going through the middle of this, uh, pandemic right now, and then that's having an impact on the, uh, some of the supply chain, isn't it, for, for fresh food? Is, is what's going on there, and is that likely to stop this trend, or it's just gonna be a, a, a brief bump in the road?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I, I think everyone's seen the news that that meat packing plants have had issues with the, the outbreaks of covid 19 within these facilities. Uh, employees work closely together. Um, and it's hard to, uh, I'm not a virologist, but it's hard to cons spray, contain the spread of, of disease in, in those circumstances, because you don't have the social distancing. You know, there, there will certainly be obviously a near term impact. Uh, I think the most immediate impact would be availability, um, and likely result in, in inflation, uh, at least temporarily within fresh, fresh food, particularly meat, you know, there and there has, as, as you noted, I think everyone's aware that there's been a shift from restaurants that are largely closed in most jurisdictions around the country, um, to grocery stores. Um, there is plenty of meat. It's just the question of, uh, canopy process and can it get to where it needs to be in the form factor that, that consumers desire it, you know, I think in the near term, there will be impacts. Uh, I think it's unclear how long this persists. I've, I've read some things that would suggest four to five weeks, um, where maybe you'll have less variety, uh, availability and availability, you know, but I think it ultimately will depend on how quickly the virus can be, can be gotten under control, how quickly the, the, the, the meat processors can put in the social distancing or safety protocols within their facilities, um, to get them back up and running. And, and, you know, frankly, nobody wants to see animals euthanized and, and wasted. Um, as there's been a discussion of lately, whether, whether you're a meat eater or not, um, nobody, nobody wants to see that. So I think it's, it's probably just a, a bump in the road in terms of the fresh, fresh supply chain, um, as when, as it comes to, to packaged foods, you know, certainly, um, in the last, let's call it, I suppose we're going on two months now, we're in mid-May, uh, there's, there's been a shift back towards, um, traditional packaged foods from, as, as restaurants have closed. Um, the most recent data that I've seen would suggest that growth, uh, sort of center of store is, is sustaining itself in the high teens below 20% range for packaged food in the us, which is obviously a significant step up from, from the, the one to 2% that would, would more typical be more typical. What remains to be seen is the sustainability of that trend as restaurants open up and whether there is some permanent change in, in consumers dining habits in, in the us you know, about half, a little more than half of overall food dollars spent, um, in recent years has been outside the house. That, and certainly in the short term is going to shift. How much of that has shifted more durably to the home? I, I think, remains to be seen. It will ultimately depend on how quickly restaurants can open up, how consumers react to the social distancing measures that are likely, uh, in the near term, how quickly can of, uh, a vaccine be, be, be, uh, be generated and frankly distributed to the 300 plus million people in the United States. But I, I think, you know, so I think it's too early to say, but I think in the near term it will, it will likely remain a tailwind. Um, going back to the Great Recession, uh, in 2008, uh, it had just, again, flew away from home versus food at home was, uh, was about 50 50. It had just tipped over 50%, uh, in 2007. Uh, and it took several years for that to get back to, uh, prior levels. So I think in this instance, given the rapidity or the speed at which the economy has turned down with the social distancing measures in place and restaurants closed, uh, and many presumably won't reopen, um, I think it's, it's likely that this will remain a tailwind for packaged food for some period of time. It's just unclear how long.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, um, perhaps related to the, uh, this trend about, uh, more fresh food and less packaged food, uh, the longer term trend, there's, there's another trend, you know, somebody independent of that, uh, towards more plant-based food and away from, uh, you know, animal based food. How has, uh, do, do you have any numbers behind that? And, and is it, what is driving that? Is it, I mean, I guess there are multiple drivers, but, uh, it could be, you know, health people could be worried about health reasons. It could be, some people I know actually believe that it's, uh, positive for climate change to eat more plants. Uh, some believe it's, uh, like you mentioned earlier about some people, whether you're meeting or not, some people just think it's, you know, it's a moral issue about eating meat or not. So, uh, do you have any sense of, uh, what is really driving this trend towards plant-based food and, and you have a sense of, uh, how much of the market it's likely to, to eventually take over?
Speaker 3:Well, I, I think that, you know, I think it's a combination of all of the above things that you mentioned. Um, consumers can ship to plant-based for a variety of different reasons, and each consumer may have their own reasons. Um, you know, there have certainly been studies that suggest that raising, uh, livestock, particularly beef is a significant contributor to greenhouse gas. Certainly there may be a health component, uh, and then a moral component, um, around raising animals simply to be, to be slaughtered for, for consumption. So I think all of those things play into it, but I think what's interesting is it's fairly consistent across the generation cohorts that, that we discussed. So, uh, I thought it was interesting. I saw a, uh, a survey by Bernstein, uh, from 2019 that asked consumers if they were trying to eat less meat. And what, what I, what, what's interesting is that across age cohorts from Gen Z to millennials to Gen X, to baby boomers, all of them are between 30 to 40%. Uh, gen Z was 32% millennials the highest, maybe not surprising, 39% Gen X, 30%, but what the number that really stood out to me was that baby boomers, 33% were looking to reduce their, their consumption of meat. So it, it's, it's, it's not just maybe the conventional thinking would it be, would be that it's just the younger, younger cohorts that, that are interested in that. But it actually spans the, the spectrum of the demographics, which, which I found, uh, quite interesting. I think it's difficult to say what, what percentage of the food market or consumers will shift to a plant-based diet. Certainly 30 plus are, are trying to, to eat less meat. So that certainly suggests that there's a tailwind behind the trend. Um, and I think it's also interesting or important to point out that while the Beyond Meats and the Impossible Foods, uh, of the worlds with their, with their plant-based burgers get a lot of attention, there are a number and, and certainly have been disrupted. There are a number of companies that have plant-based products under a number of different brands. And this, this is not an exclusive list or an all-inclusive list, but, you know, ConAgra, uh, Kellogg, Kraft Heinz, Nestle Un, Unilever, Tyson, they all have plant-based products in market or in development today. Uh, and then Danone with, with having acquired white waves, all of the plant-based beverages and ice creams that they got, uh, from, from that acquisition, you know, they're a significant player just in a different part of the plant-based market that, you know, exists and is people are aware of, but maybe doesn't get as much of the play, uh, more recently as the, as the, as the Burger Burger based businesses do. And, and I think it's a trend that, as I mentioned, I think is likely to continue because consumers are looking to be healthier. I think a lot of the innovation that is going to be done will be to try to improve the texture, flavor, and nutrition of these plant-based products. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, there's been studies suggesting that, you know, that the plant-based burgers are, are, are relatively high in sodium. Part of that may be a function of the, the meat that they're testing it against hasn't been seasoned yet, I'm not entirely sure. But, um, mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, I think it, it's a trend that's likely to continue, and I think you'll likely see different form factors. I know there's been some discussion in, in some circles of, of, of plant-based tuna fish product, um, you know, or fish based, you know, chicken there is already out there. Uh, and I think you'll just see more and more of it coming to the fore and, and, you know, if the products tastes good, I think there will be a market for them.
Speaker 1:Also, sort of related to that, go sort on another tangent off of that line. Um, there's been, certainly compared to, uh, you know, 20, 30 years ago, you look at the, the market today, and it's, it's much more fragmented. You know, it used to be a pretty homogenous market if, uh, you know, years ago it, it was revolutionary if somebody came out with some variance on a product, maybe low salt or something like that. But now there's, you know, you've got vegan products, gluten free, you've got people on these paleo diets, you've got people on keto diets, and it seems like there's something for everybody out there. How does, how do companies, uh, you know, meet that challenge? And does it affect, you know, does it affect margins when you have to cater lots of smaller markets as opposed to one big market?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, I think, um, fragmentation is a trend that I think goes well, well beyond, uh, what, what you even spoke of, you know, there, if you think about the, the vectors upon which these food companies or large companies today have to, um, to manage, there's, uh, consumer fragmentation, which you mentioned in terms of diet preferences. There's also income disparity. So there's the high end, the low end, the keto diet, the, the, the, the more traditional, uh, diet, the whole 30 diets, et cetera. The media landscape is fragmenting with, with the rise of the internet, uh, and alternative, uh, media sources. Uh, and then there's channel fragmentation. You know, it's no longer just the supermarkets. There's the hypermarkets, there's the dollar stores, there's online platforms and, and frankly direct to consumer, direct from the brands themselves that they can build their own platforms. So, you know, I think from a product perspective, companies need to be willing to go where the growth is and focus more on revenue and gross profit dollar growth as opposed to strictly a percentage margin. And frankly, one of the things I've wondered about this is whether there's a mindset difference between being a public company and a private company in terms of how you approach that question. You know, if, if I'm a large publicly traded food company and my operating margin is 17%, am I less willing to chase the idea that has a 12% operating margin? Whereas if I'm a private company and don't have to report to outside shareholders, am I willing to chase that 10 or 12% margin idea? And because it's dollar growth as opposed to a percentage margin? And I think there's certainly been a shift within publicly traded companies to be more willing to go after those things, uh, maybe than there was a few years ago. Uh, in terms of the fragmentation, I think from a marketing perspective, the companies need to utilize the tools that are available to them to effectively measure the return on investment that they're getting for all of the investments that they're making, and optimize the media mix potentially down to the brand or skew level, SKU level, um, that, that, that, that needs to be, uh, uh, to try to maximize that return. Uh, and then from a supply chain perspective, you know, given the fragmentation they need to be as efficient as possible all through the supply chain to understand the profitability of each product, um, as granularly as possible in order to make the appropriate financial decisions. And, and frankly, there may be trade offs to be made. There may be products that aren't as profitable as you thought they were. Once you fully bake in these, the costs and, and e r p systems are certainly available to help these companies do that. Uh, and frankly, I think they just need to be more nimble and, and faster in their decision making and, and leverage the best of being big while trying to act small, which obviously isn't necessarily always, always easy, but I think they're, they're beginning to get better at it in the last couple of years, and, and you've seen the, the bigger brands begin to, to fight back against the insurgents that came to market, uh, five plus years ago.
Speaker 1:It's funny, uh, in retrospect, certain things, like you look at the product proliferation, uh, even within a particular area like cookies, you know, you'd take what's happened to Oreos over the years where, you know, for decades and decades it was just Oreos. There was one variety of Oreos,<laugh>, and now they come out with a new one. But every three weeks, uh, you know, some different, uh, flavor, different filling. And the same thing happened like with Prefered Farms cookies. The Milano cookies used to be one thing, and now there's about 50 of them with all the different players. And then you look back and you think, why weren't they always doing this? Well, you know, why did it, you know, what, what did it take to shake them up to suddenly start saying, Hey, we could offer more than one type of food. You know? Uh,
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think, you know, that's also different form factors as well, because they're now snack packs for, for, for a number of different products as consumers are, are, are more on the go and, and looking to, to be able to eat in their car or eat different places, you know, different form factors of some of, of the, the products that are known and loved by consumers have, have certainly made, made their way to the market to try to satisfy that, that need.
Speaker 1:I let's finish with one last question. Are there any, uh, are, are you aware of, if you had to guess, are there any new trends sort of just over the horizon that a couple years from now, you know, will become very big? You know, are we all to be eating tree bark or something in, in three years,<laugh>, you know, what do you, what do you, what do you see as new trends similar to the way the plant-based food? You know, 10 years ago, uh, people might not have anticipated that we were gonna have plant-based hamburgers. What do you think's the, the next big thing out there?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm, I'm, I'm not a soothsayer, but I will, I will do my best, um, and, and, and try to point a few, a few things out. You know, I, I think first I think there will be continued effort to, to, to move towards cleaner labels, uh, and improve the nutritional profile, perceived or otherwise, of the food that, that we're actually consuming. So that, that could include reducing sugar and, and replacing artificial sweeteners with natural sweeteners, the, the reduced use of artificial ingredients, um, because ultimately it's what consumers want, but you, but the key is that these companies will need to preserve the taste profile of food, because if it doesn't taste good, consumers won't consume it. I, I think that there will be more, more functional foods. Uh, I know there's work going on, and I, I think the science, I think remains to be conclusive around the microbiome and probiotics and, and, and how can, can food, uh, impact overall health. But I think there will be continued work on that. So, so watch this space, I suppose for, for that sort of sort, sort of thing. In terms of alternative proteins, I've seen some written work around insects and, and the role that insects can play in terms of protein. I'm not necessarily willing to, to say that that's going to happen, but it, but it's, it's a po it's a, it's a, it's a possibility. I don't know that I'll be, uh, the early adopter<laugh>. Uh, and, and then, you know, I, I, I think, um, I, I think lastly I would just point out from an environmental perspective, uh, consumers are certainly more, more interested in and aware of the, the impact that their consumption has on the environment. So I think there'll be more work being done, and it's being done today in terms of packaging, trying to reduce, um, the use of plastics, trying to find alternatives or increased use of recycled materials. Governments in other parts of the world, um, have certainly put in deposit schemes to try to entice greater recycling. Companies are certainly taking this more seriously than any point that I've seen in the past. And then I think just to that point, I think just reduce the overall environmental footprint of the food that we do consume, reduce waste, reduce water usage in its production. So I think those are the sorts of things that we're likely to see. Uh, and then of course, flavors change, et cetera. And that will always happen. But I think from a, from a high level, um, broad strokes, I think those would be the things that I'd be, I'd be looking at.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, the concussions may get me hungry, so I think I'm gonna have to go get a snack. Uh, Glenn, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3:Thanks Steve.
Speaker 1:Uh, and we'll talk to you again soon. Thanks for listening.
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